Independent Thinking - Exploring a new era for retail and the high street

Experiential retail, predicting consumer trends and the rise of Phygital with Dr Sarah Montano, University of Birmingham

March 15, 2021 Verdant Forrest Productions Season 2 Episode 6
Independent Thinking - Exploring a new era for retail and the high street
Experiential retail, predicting consumer trends and the rise of Phygital with Dr Sarah Montano, University of Birmingham
Show Notes Transcript

Now feels like a good time to gain a little perspective and think about what’s happening in retail and on our high streets in more depth; help us understand why we are where we are, what our high streets could look like in the future and what trends we can expect to emerge.

And who better to do this with than Dr Sarah Montano, Senior Lecturer in Marketing at University of Birmingham who has written extensively around this area. In a recent piece, she proposes that to emerge successfully in 2021, the UK high street needs to focus on blending physical and digital, creating 'Phygital' spaces, increasing consumer confidence, and for government to understand more deeply what we, as consumers need, and the constraints that we are likely to face in future. We unpack all this and more in today’s fascinating episode - enjoy!

This is the last episode of our current series, but fear not - we'll be back in May! 

Read Dr Montano's piece in full here: 
https://www.birmingham.ac.uk/news/thebirminghambrief/items/2021/jan/what-does-the-high-street-need-for-a-successful-2021.aspx 

Support the show
Independent Thinking:

Hello, and welcome to Independent Thinking the podcast exploring a new era for the high street. We celebrate those who are doing wonderful, creative things, in the most difficult of circumstances. We'll be going behind the scenes of businesses and shops you love that you look forward to visiting and that bring joy to your high streets. I'm your host, Alexandra. Welcome along. Hello, and welcome along. Well, another interesting week of developments and news in retail, and about retail spaces particularly; it has really made me reflect on some of the themes that have been covered earlier in the series. And indeed some of the areas we'll be delving into more detail with our guest in today's episode. So this week, we saw Asda's owners considering removing grocery space to add nail bars and takeaways, as they think about new reasons for us to visit their stores, and crucially, how they keep us there, when we arrive. Marks and Spencers also having similar thoughts about their flagship store, but not nail bars and takeaways but instead thinking about office space - how can they take some of the space devoted to retail and switch it on its head. They're focusing on "emerging stronger" out of the pandemic, as part of their 'Never the Same Again' programme - there is so much drama to that title! But you can't argue with it; we are never going to be the same again, our high streets are going to be reshaped, our working lives are going to be very different. John Lewis are also having similar thoughts about how they adapt some of their floor space to co-working space, or even residential areas in store. So, as we've touched upon in previous episodes, lots of discussion, lots of change happening around this area. And I think it's important at this juncture to really zoom out and gain a bit of perspective of what's happening in more depth. What's happened so far, thinking about understanding that what caused some of the things we're seeing on our High Street, looking at the trends we can expect to emerge, and think a bit more about what high streets can look like in future. And who better to do this than Dr. Sarah Montano, Senior Lecturer in Marketing at University of Birmingham, who's written extensively around this area. In a recent piece, she proposes that to emerge successfully in 2021, UK High Street needs to focus on blending physical and digital space - to create'Phygital' spaces, increased consumer confidence and government investment, and for governments to truly understand how we as consumers live and what we need from our retailers. We unpack this and lots more in today's fascinating episode. Enjoy. Thank you so much for joining us! Birmingham calling! Which is wonderful

Dr Sarah Montano:

Thank you very much for having me. I'm delighted to be here.

Independent Thinking:

We've been talking to a lot of independent retailers in this series, we've been looking at community ownership and new trends emerging, movements happening online. And so I wanted to speak to you, as an academic working in this field, to give us a bit of context. So I wonder if we could just start by looking at what is actually happening. First of all, again, what are the trends that were happening pre COVID? And what are the key things that are happening now; why is it we are where we are, right now?

Dr Sarah Montano:

Interesting question. Well, if we want to wo When do we start to see the that really take off? Would that be k out how we got to where we a e, we kind of need to dial back couple of 100 years. 1850 s the key watershed date in the evelopment of what we would ca l Modern retailing. So that's when we see the likes of La Bon Marche open. John Lewis comes a ittle bit later, Selfridges in the early 1900s, so that's wh n there's a big shift in ret il that is not predominantly fu ctional, but we start to see his idea of retail being somethi g that's that's more of an exper ence. And then that obviously bu lds throughout 20th century; and then in the 1980s we start to see super malls and that kind o thing, where retail is a de tination. It's somewhere that you go for a day out and the uper malls have experiences attached, whether they've got th me parks, cinemas or casinos bars, you know all all types of things. And then o viously we get on online retail ng then then come comes in in the last 10 years? It just pre-dates the year 2000. That's when you see the very early, the real innovators starting. But it really picks up in your mid 2000s. That's when it really, really picks up. And then obviously, today, we have something what we call the omni channel retailing, which is whereby, consumers are seeking to be on an app, on the retailer's app, they want to be able to order, they want to be able to do things like look at, you know, if I'm buying a jumper, what's my jumper made of; they want to find product information, but also be in store as well. And the expectation is that would be seamless movement between the app, seamless movement between online platform, and in store. What we're really seeing is stores pre COVID had become sort of highly experiential. And so if we look at something like the brand new Primark building in Birmingham, which only opened a couple of years ago, there's a hair salon, there's a nail bar, there's a Disney cafe, there's other little cafes dotted around, there are barbers; and there's also a social media kind of wall, as well, and great places for people to rest on sofas with obviously, charging points. So things are really experiential, because that's the reason to go to the store, for the experience, because now online has become, you know, really quite, quite easy. Yeah. And then of course,COVID hit. And that obviously, moves a lot of people, you know, particularly the people who weren't keen on online shopping. So you know, things like having to shield and things like that, meant that perhaps if you hadn't done online shopping before, suddenly, by necessity, you had to move to that platform. And then of course, a lot of people have discovered different brands, they've discovered different retailers, they've discovered a different way to shop. So we can see from the ONS data that, there's obviously been this surge to online. But it is quite interesting. Again, if we look at the ONS data, when retailers open, we do see a drop in the online. And then as retailers close again, and it's picked up, and one of the things I have found quite interesting is that governments have made this decision between what they deem to be 'essential' retail and 'essential' products, and'non essential' retail and 'non essential' products. And I think that is quite an interesting development, because we've never really had that before, you know, to be told as a consumer, what you desire is not essential. And I think what was interesting, if you read what was non essential, I was reading it going "well, it kind of feels essential to me? Bedlinen? Birthday cards, actually, they feel quite essential to me? So I think I think that's interesting.

Independent Thinking:

Because who decided that? Was it working with retailers, I'm guessing not, in terms of drawing up that list?

Dr Sarah Montano:

I haven't got access to that information. So I don't know. But I did read it, you know, as it came up. So things like obviously, the different governments have had slightly different approaches. So I think, you know, Wales have been particularly strict in the essential and non essential retail. In England, it's more be if your store is open, then you've been deemed to be essential. So therefore, you could sell it. But if your store is not open, then you deemed to be non essential. Yeah, I think a lot depends on your perceptions of essential, and non essential! So that's sort of where we're at where we are. And obviously, it will be interesting to see where where do we go for it go from here

Independent Thinking:

It was interesting that you said that when the shops reopened, people went back, so I suppose then we see a drop in online sales. Are you saying,obviously we're shopping online, it's through necessity at the moment, but actually, we don't get the sense of enjoyment? That we lose so much from not being in our physical spaces, that we we crave?

Dr Sarah Montano:

Yeah, I think so. So it's, I mean, it's Yeah, all these connections that were on the outskirts of our interesting. So looking at the ONS data, it certainly hasn't gone back to pre COVID levels. Certainly not. And I don't I don't think it will ever go back to that. But it's thinking about what what retail is about; so often we have this perception you know, shopping is'frivolous', and that, it's like, why do we live in a kind of consumer society? So often there is an inherent bias as to why we might be doing that. But I think it's helpful that we step back and we try and broaden our understanding of what we're doing. I think part of it is the physicality of shopping. Actually, it's quite nice to walk around the shops. It's a bit of exercise, and it's quite nice. Online is great. But I think you tend to find when you're online, you start to search for quite specific things, don't you? Whereas in store you walk across, and obviously retailers will build their store layouts to maximise the possibility of me stumbling across things. "Yes, I would lik a vanilla candle. Thank you v ry much. I had no idea I wa ted a vanilla candle!" But c early, I do want a vanilla cand e today when I come in for a umper or whatever. So, you know you find out new things, b t I think, you know, perhaps the most important one is that e use retail to social se. So you might meet your um, sure you go shopping, then you go and have a coffee. And hen you know, you might, you k ow, finish up in All Bar One a d then come home! My daughter- she had an inset day yesterda. So we had an imaginary rip out, because we can t have one. So we were sat out ide, we'd been out for a litt e walk and we were sat outsid, we said "right, we can't d anything. Let's have a life, these people that touch our lives every now and again. I imaginary trip. Right? Where are we going? I should say so we're going into the centre f Birmingham, right? Wha are we doing?" She's we're de initely going to the cinema. said, "What are we gonna se?" The new Pixar film. So it' all imaginary. And whe e else are we going? She said, w're going to go to Hotel Chocol t. And we're gonna buy some cho olates, we're gonna have a drink because their coffees and hocolates are just amazing, and obviously calorie free, comp etely calorie free (!). So we're gonna go there, as she says, we're going to go o Primark, buy a couple of things, and definitely a tr p to the bookstore, as we both l was just thinking that this morning, Friday, that I, I will ve reading. So I thought, I'll put my academic head on, wo, okay, well, that's sort of the exemplifies of what reta l is about. It's not abo t product acquisition. But th t's an experience, it's spend ng time together, and that s what we do. So, you know, re ail is, is much more than jus getting a product. And, of cou se, you know, I think our wo lds have become quite sma l. Next year, yes, an import nt part of the high street is round communities. The cafe here people know what you favourite drink is, you k ow, the bookshop that you go nto, where you get great advic, because they know who you re, and they know the types f books that you've got to rea. You know, we go into th clothing store, and again, t e same sort of recommendations. nd that's, you know, that's that's part part of our commu ities. treat myself to cinnamon bun, so I'll go to the same place. And it's just these things, I see them once a week, you know, and it's these people that just sort of mean something and they add so much colour to our lives. As well, it's good for our mental well being. Yeah, you know, to be to be with people. And sometimes it's not even about be actually, meeting someone, it's about just being around other people, to be in a space where where it's busy. So you know, pre COVID times, you know, Starbucks is quite a busy place. But you see lots of people working in there, you see students studying in there, you see people just having a coffee and reading, browsing on their phones, whatever. Not because you actually are going to meet another person, but you can be by yourself, but be with other people. Yeah, yeah, exactly! I long for that, you know, even just hearing you talk about it. It's just a wonderful idea. So thinking about the kind of, particularly in the past, I suppose six months, (but it's really accelerated in the past a couple of weeks) of just thinking but the big names on our high streets that are going out of business or are being bought up. I wonder,have you got any thoughts about what's happening there in terms of these larger retailers? I mean, there's been a lot of talk about, particularly about Arcadia group, about actually, they weren't quick enough to keep up with what consumers are wanting, they were slow on the uptake. They were their stores weren't feeling, I suppose Oxford Street was still a destination, but that they weren't investing in that experience in store or in their collections. I just wondered if you had any comment about what how much of this is down to business decisions and what's caused by consumer trends? Yeah; COVID was the straw that... it was just too much. So I think that's to a certain extent; you know, consumers have changed because we're people! So we do change over time , you know, like our high streets don't look like they're from the 1950s you know, precisely because we have changed the way we shop, in a different way. We work in a different way. We live in a different way. So consumers are always going to change; our need for different products (for example). Look at the sales of loungewear. On Zoom,you know, you look smart on top, you might not look quite so smart, when you know where you're wearing, your flowery, comfortable trousers or something. So, you know, consumers have changed, consumers will continue to change. And, you know, part of the role of the retailer is to look ahead and think what is going to happen in 5, 10, 15, 20 years; as a retailer, 'are we prepared for those consumer trends?', Some trends will rise up from nowhere, and, you know, okay, that was a bit of a surprise, but your job of a retailer is to be understanding, what are the subtle changes, that are starting to predict how people might might behave. It's very hard for any large organisation to turn themselves around, it is really difficult, I think the problem with department stores, is, very, very large stores have very large square footage, all of that space needs to be performing and needs to be profitable. You've then got the online, so people are shopping online, they're coming in to click and collect, they're not necessarily trying clothes on, you know, they're having a look at the clothes in store because they aren't going to buy them, they buy them online. So you can try them on in the comfort of your own own home. So you've got all of those trends colliding. And I don't feel that department stores are, you know, have declined specifically because of COVID. I think, you know, they're finding it difficult to get that sort of centrality of space in what is a quite a crowded kind of market. Ones that do well, Harvey Nichols, Selfridges - a) they've got limited stores, so they're not trying to support stores that are performing badly because there's not that many of them but also as well, they've got a bit of a niche. You know, why would it go to Harvey Nichols? Well, you know, because it's very designer led, etc. It's also highly experiential as well. Yeah. Birmingham's one is incredible. Yeah, it is an incredible space, an incredibly well designed space. So you know, I think it was really difficult for them. And I think you know, things moving on. So if we look as if this week, Amazon Go has opened in Ealing in London, which I can't wait to go to.

Independent Thinking:

Can you tell us about Amazon Go is for those who don't know, what is what is what is that?

Dr Sarah Montano:

So it's called just 'walk out technology'. So essentially, you go into the store, you scan your Amazon. And so before you go into the store, you have an app, you scan your app to enter the store, you go into the store, you have your bag, and you literally pick things off the shelves, and you put them in your bag, and you walk out again, so there's no queues. And so you know, one of the things people don't tend to like is queuing; quite boring isn't it? Stood there, customers tend to get a bit frustrated, in those types of queues. And obviously, the queue that you're not in always moves faster! Or you always pick the wrong queues. And so, you know, we are seeing innovation; so it's not that stores are not successful. It's the right type of store. And I think, you know, okay, so Debenhams might go, or will exit. And then what we might see is we might see Amazon Go in its place. I don't think stores will go completely because you know, the experience.

Independent Thinking:

It is! I'm not wishing to dwell on Debenhams, but I'm just thinking that it's the sheer volume of space that you take up and actually often they're the real flagships of major shopping developments. In Scotland I'm thinking Dundee and Edinburgh, and Glasgow as well are massive sites, and in Dundee it's a whole corner of the Overgate shopping centre and that is you enter through Debenhams. What w ll become of their stores? Do yo think do you think there ll be sort of split up? It s ems like an awful lot of spa e for someone?

Dr Sarah Montano:

Yeah, and it's the same in Birmingham. I mean, Debenhams is a massive wing of The Bullring, and the main shopping centre; it's 4 floors. So it's an enormous space. I think there might be some kind of disruption there, that you might see 4 individual stores rather than necessarily one big one but it's it's different types of stores isn't it? So if we look at Apple. Apple Stores actually are often quite large spaces. But they tend to perform quite well but they have the added you know, excitement don't they? There's always a new iPad or a new laptop or a new phone. Apple Store is highly experiential; where you can go and play, unlike, the old days of mobile phones, we got like a plastic version. And you know, they've got people on hand to help you, if you're worried about the technology, or something's gone wrong, you can book in a slot. Or you can go in with your device. And you can attend a class where they'll teach you more about your device or more about the particular types of software and yeah, things so I think added value, isn't it?

Independent Thinking:

It's all the stuff you can't get online, but you need to have, it just enhances the experience all the more - with a workshop or speaking to... speaking to a human!

Dr Sarah Montano:

Yeah, I mean, revolutionary these days!

Independent Thinking:

Are we going to see more of that then? You mentioned this already starting to be a bit of a trend, but is retailers are thinking about adding value in their stores and adding, and not even buying things being the focus anymore actually, about buying into the whole brand, that you're actually experiencing something by walking through those doors?

Dr Sarah Montano:

Yeah, I think so I think that's what we're looking for. We're looking for something it's quite immersive and different strands to that brand, as well. So different elements. So whether it's about the fact that there's a cafe in there, or there's a nail bar, or there's, you know, whatever there is, a homeware design service, I think it's that there needs to be a purpose to go to stores and the product is no longer enough. I mean, there's always exceptions to every rule, and some stores... So Primark does quite well, but Primark doesn't sell online. So you've got a reason to go to the store, because it doesn't have an online offering. Their online offering only tells you what might be in store. And it's Primark, so you don't even know if it will be there!

Independent Thinking:

An interesting choice that they've made there, that they've invested in stores and not online. And it's still throughout the whole year, regardless of they're not not allowed through their doors. They're still sticking to instore. I suppose that's a decision they've taken as a business to do that, which feels quite unique. Actually, TK Maxx wasn't online for a while either, but they have since...

Dr Sarah Montano:

With TK Maxx, it's the thrill of the purchase, isn't it? And I sort of put Apple in that - the kind of thrill; "Oh I've got my new phone! And it's all set up. And it all works! Oh, it's so exciting". Primark is a bit the same. Well, you know, I mean, obviously, the sustainability issues with fast fashion. But leaving that to one side, you know, it's coming out with an enormous bag and go well, I spent 55/50 pounds, and I've got, like 100 items or something, you know, there's that kind of thrill of getting the purchase and TK Maxx is a bit like that. It's the thrill of finding the bargain, isn't it? So yes, it's that sort of emotional aspects of shopping. And I think we're seeing those stores that have that emotional thrill. There's not quite as much as an emotional excitement as buying a packet of pillowcases!

Independent Thinking:

Quite I know. So is there some sectors of retail that are weathering the storm better than others? Are there some that are ready to adapt more quickly? Are you seeing differences in the sector?

Dr Sarah Montano:

Yeah, I mean, obviously food retail! But I mean, there's always disruption in any sector. You know, if you dial back sort of 20 years ago when Aldi and Lidl and things started coming in the scene. So there's always disruption, but obviously food is kind of pretty, pretty kind of'anything' proof! Because, you know, we all have to have to eat! What we're seeing is we're seeing different trends. So it's not particularly sectors as such, it's kind of trends within sectors. So if we look at clothing, you know, work clothing plummeted. Loungewear - off like a rocket. So you see, like brands like Hush have done really well because they do loungewear kind of clothing. So it's a bit more nuanced, rather than just looking at sectors. Obviously, things like technologies for working from home, so we need things like headsets and microphones! So I think it's more it's more nuanced perhaps than it used to be.

Independent Thinking:

So we're obviously all at home at the moment. There's slightly different roadmaps- in England and Scotland they differ slightly, our non essential retail opens on 26th April, it looks like, in England on 12th April, so slightly earlier. So when we open up, are you expecting there will be a real pent up demand? Are we going to see a huge surge and people really want to get back to the shops? I suppose there's an element, I guess of a consumer confidence, obviously, because of the recession that we're in, but also confidence in terms of our health, and feeling how safe we feel in these spaces. But do you feel more see the bounceback that we so desperately need?

Dr Sarah Montano:

I think there will be an early bounceback because things are need based. So children are going back to school earlier in England, they go going back next week. And children are going back in the other nations, even if there's a staggered start. So you know, things like school uniforms, school shoes, often you want to try shoes on and things like t at. So I think there'll be an i itial surge from, you know, t e fact that people have need b se that they want to go out, a d they need to replace p oducts, or they've identified t at they need new products. So I hink we'll see an initial surge And then after that, I think a lot depends what happens when e open up, because of cours, a lot of retail purch ses will be driven by occas ons; "oh, I'm going to the wedd ng. I need a new outfit", "Oh I'm going on holiday", I t ink a lot will happen will d pend on that as well. So I don' think we'll see things full going back until possibly 2022 Because it's, you know, thin s sort of occasion based as well So we're still in for a bit of a difficult, difficu t time. And I think a lot of thi gs depend on what government ins ructions, we get, so a reall simple example of this is - we wear face masks at the moment. So if we wear face masks, we don t tend to wear lipstick, but wh t we have seen is with rocket n the sales of mascara and e eliner!

Independent Thinking:

Playing up those eyes!

Dr Sarah Montano:

Yeah, exactly! But if the government say, wearing face masks is not mandatory anymore. Of course, some consumers will still want to wear face masks, and a lot like it will depend on your job role, it will depend on your own health wise, but also some consumers will be throwing off the face masks and putting the lipstick back on. So they will see a rise in lipstick. So I think a lot of it is does depend really on on what else happens around. And I think we can't separate retail out from societal developments, the two are really intertwined.

Independent Thinking:

Yeah, it's so fascinating to think about our responses. And it's a very emotional feeling as well, I think about our connection with our purchases, because I've been reading about how there could be a surge in a smart wear or in terms of people wanting to buy suits and desperately feeling like "Oh, I'm sick of putting on these bloody leggings on again!" I just find that so interesting that it's a very emotional connection, we have to, to these things as well to how they feel.

Dr Sarah Montano:

I mean, absolutely, I mean, what we wear is really tied to our self identity and our self expression. And I think that's it, you know, I'm looking at some of the stuff and thinking,"wow, I'm not going outside in that!" When I'm teaching, you know, obviously, I'm sat down teaching, which is quite a different experience to normally when I would I'd be in a class, which is kind of active. And I have a sort of bit of my wardrobe, which is sort of my teaching wardrobe bit, that's my meeting wardrobe, and obviously, I'm in the meeting wardrobe, tending to be at the moment, but you know, we sort of use what we're wearing to match our personas. So you know, if I'm teaching you, I do want to wear things that I think look quite smart, they look kind of professional, I'd want to convey that image and wouldn't necessarily wear the same garments when I'm schlepping around Asda you know, it's not quite the same. And I think there will be that, you know, a"god, I just can't wait to wear something different!" And I think people are looking forward to that as well. And when you meet other people, because of course, in your own home, you're only really going to dress for yourself or appearing on Zoom in your dressing for but, you know, even if we can get six people around, you know, for a barbecue or something, then you've got that sort of sense of, you know, what might I wear? And of course, I mean, there was some data out this week on sort of savings as well. And the savings that have been accrued over this year. Now, of course, you know, we're in a recession, the things look quite on the horizon at the moment. But I think a proportion of that, some consumers will want to spend that, again obviously, it depends on kind of job roles, security of job and things like that, but there will be some of those savings that people want to spend. You know, we've seen investment in our homes. We've seen a lot of significant spendings there, because people have been sat in their homes all the time and they're like "Do you know what? I should probably replace that sofa, chair, table. You know, I need a new bathroom or something like that. Because people have been in their homes. So I think that will, I think there certainly will be an initial bounce.

Independent Thinking:

Oh, that's I mean, it's good to hear about, isn't it? I feel like I'm living in my head, or just in a dream world of wishing about all the things, like you were talking about with your daughter, all the things we could do. It's gonna be wonderful. And so thinking about this, about when we're back in and sort of in a better, more upbeat time, and thinking about our future of retail and things. I just want to pick up on some of the things you said about community and actually what this means to us. But it's not, it's more than just buying things. It's actually the shopkeepers, we know, it's about, you know, the baristas maker coffee and thinking about, you know, Midsteeple Quarter, who, for those of you who haven't heard so far, listen back to the first episode of the series, and we spoke to Scott, the project manager of Midsteeple Quarter who is a leading a community buyback scheme of key sites on High Street. And this is the first of its kind in the UK, but I think they very much want to be a blueprint for other towns like it, and I wonder are we going to see a move towards wanting to see more distinctiveness on our high streets? And is there something about us losing, I don't know, are we falling out of love with some of these, maybe Debenhams or Arcadia - are they intertwined, about us wanting to actually support our independents, who actually have also kept us going in our smaller local high streets. And us wanting to, to buy it back, to have a bit more of a stake in our own high streets?

Dr Sarah Montano:

Yeah, I think I think so. You know, working patterns have changed. I mean, I think a lot of people, you know, do want to get back to the office, but perhaps not every day. You know, actually what I want to be is I want to be in the office three days a week and at home. And I think we've kind of perhaps fallen in love a little bit with our high streets, because, you know, certainly where I live, it's a bit of a kind of commuter town. So lots of people will go into central Birmingham or some of the other towns around and we do have like a little kind of high street, it's not quite a High Street because ours isn't in a line. But we have a really nice quasi High Street, you know, with lots of little restaurants, things like that cafe Nero, big Sainsbury's, etc. This is really nice area. And I think, you know, people have almost, you know, by proxy of being forced, you know, with the stay at home and messages and things like that, I think people have sort of discovered their locality. And I think that's, that's a real, real positive. And I think that's a real opportunity for growth for the retail, and retailers. So, you know, people will be working from home and they think, "okay, I've got an hour, what I'll do is I'll go and have a walk, I'll pick up my coffee from Cafe Nero, and I'll pop in and get some dinner" or something like that. And I think that's a really positive.I read something about John Lewis and Waitrose this week that they're looking at putting a mini John Lewis inside, I think they said, in every Waitrose and I thought, well, that would be quite quite interesting, because obviously, lots of people use click and collect. I think what I could see is perhaps some large brands having mini stores, almost as the click and collect, because that is always the difficult bit, we call that the'last mile problem' is getting stuff that you've ordered online and getting it to your house. That's the big challenge. And obviously, the growth of click and collect, Amazon lockers and things like that have been quite important. But yeah, I think I can see us being a bit more in love with our high streets. And I think people do feel quite loyal to their high streets. They do feel and I think there is a appreciation of what's kept everybody going. That's important. And you do build these little mini relationships with people, you do.

Independent Thinking:

I think you remember who's been there throughout as well. I remember when lockdown happened initially here, I think about five days in. I only remember that five days, because I remember writing on Instagram, 'Day five', and at that point, we thought you know, it'll be... It will only be for another 10 more days! Here we are a year later! I know, right?! But I remember being so impressed. Impressed is the only word I can think of, actually, about how retailers were acting, particularly local, independent people who were actually just thinking "right, okay, we haven't done deliver before. But okay, how can we do it? How can we can be set up online?" How can we? I don't know, get people going keep morale up, keep us all feeling connected. And I feel like we're going to remember the people who brought us through all of this. And we're going to remember the people who...

Dr Sarah Montano:

... perhaps didn't?!

Independent Thinking:

Well, exactly!

Dr Sarah Montano:

I think so. I would agree with that. I think that that is true. I mean, I remember like the first time I went into Primark, when we were let out last July, I think it was we were allowed back in Primark. I was like really impressed with their setup, it was really good. You've got like the kind of queuing system and it funnels you past the hand sanitizer, and it's like an auto dispenser. And I can see you're counting people in, and you're counting people out. And I thought that's really good. And that certainly made me go go back. Whereas the brands, who've, you know, lost deliveries and things like that...you might not be quite so keen!

Independent Thinking:

Quite! I could talk for hours about certain delivery companies, but I shan't! So in terms of thinking about the future, and you've touched upon a few key trends and things that are going to be kind of 'hot', I guess, kind of hot trends that we can look out for. But where are we going? What are our towns going to look like? Or what are the key things that you think we're going to take with us as we come out of COVID, and shape retail the next 10, 15 years, or longer?

Dr Sarah Montano:

Yeah, I mean, I think technology is the biggest one, that's going to be the biggest changes we're going to increasingly see. And I think increasingly, just see technology used to facilitate our lives. You know, when we're in retailers, and of course, from the retailer point of view, there's all kinds of things - machine learning, you know, using chatbots, that kind of things. But I think as consumers, we'll see, technologies just become like second nature. So turning apps on as soon as we walk into stores, that sort of just walk in technology, you know, like, the retailer knows who I am, as soon as I've walked in. So I think we'll see things like that. I mean, I know, Amazon Go are, their just walk out technology, they're offering that to other retailers. So I can certainly see checkouts potentially, you know, becoming a thing of the past. Because it's quite process driven, is something that consumers particularly don't like, but then you can use your employees to talk to people, to support people, to create experiences. So rather than scanning my wine bottles, you know, tell me what type of wines might I want to buy? And so I think I think we'll certainly see technology, because we're all becoming a lot more comfortable.

Independent Thinking:

Just on that point, then do you think retailers will really invest much more in their staff, seeing them less like drones to just put things through, and actually invest in the skills of their staff, because they can support people there?

Dr Sarah Montano:

Yeah, I think that's a real opportunity for retailers - to focus on that kind of experience and supporting the customer in what they want, and what they might want to buy. But I also think, conversely, whilst we see technology becoming so important, I think we'll also have spaces where we can hang out, where we can buy, so it's almost like multi purpose spaces, rather than just being retail. And, you see things like specialist kind of coffee stores, you know, craft brewers, all those types of things have become quite important; they might be quite small scale, but actually, they're quite important to the communities that they're in because they provide that bespoke offering. And I think the way in which we are going to live our lives in the future, I think that's obviously going to affect how we engage with retailers as I said before, because the two are intertwined. And I think, as we work more from home, as we use our localities, I think homes are going to look quite different because I think we're going to need spaces to work from home and things. I have read about some trends of people wanting to be out of city centres, because more space, you know, green space, I think is important as well, so maybe retailers have a bit of green space...!

Independent Thinking:

Yeah, absolutely!

Dr Sarah Montano:

Because I think, again, I think that comes from a sort of mental well being points of view, in that we're all going for walks and we're all maybe a bit bored going for yet another walk around the same place. I think that has been important to us. So I think you know, how retail kind of fits into that I think is going to be important.

Independent Thinking:

Are you excited about the future for retail?

Dr Sarah Montano:

I'm always excited! My life, I suppose it's been really all my adult life I spent either working in in retail or teaching retail. So I suppose I do, I do love retail. And, you know, I'm one of these kinds of people who, when they go overseas, go to the supermarket! Where are you? "I'm in Mauritius, I'm off to me Supermarket!" People are off to the beach, I'm thinking, what am I going to buy?! That was one of the first things I did! So, I am excited, I think because if we take a broad look at retail, you know, it's often seen as being frivolous, it's seen as being not important. I think one of the good things that's come out of the pandemic is people who work in retail have been, you know, they are essential workers. There was really kind of poor perception, you know, of people who worked in retail, and I think what's coming out is that actually without retailers to get the food to us, doesn't matter how whether that's online, whether that's in store, whether it's, you know, pulling my car up at Sainsbury's, and they're going to put the food in the boot, so it's no contact, you know, whatever happens, that that is actually really important. So I think that that appreciation, I think is good. And I would hope that that will last. But I am excited for retail, because retail is all about people. And you know,, as people, we want communities, we want to do things we want to be with other people. Will our high streets look different? Yes. Will our malls look different? Yes. Will we see new brands? Yes. But that I think that's all part of the excitement and the discovery.

Independent Thinking:

Yeah, absolutely. And I wonder... something you're talking about there reminds me of, you know, after the 2008 crash, there was a bit of a reckoning of some of the brands - that we lost brands that actually it again, it was a bit of a quickening of things, maybe trends that kind of happening anyway. But I was thinking about losing Woolworths actually, I don't know why this came to mind! But I was thinking, I wonder whether because I suppose there will be an element when when we get back to the high street at the moment, there's an element of a sort of having to draw breath a little bit, because the high streets are going look quite different. When we get back, I'm just thinking about even just Princes Street, there's at least four major players who are not going to be there when we when we start to visit other shops. So I guess there will be an element of getting used to this, new brands will emerge. But this change is happening. And change is always difficult.

Dr Sarah Montano:

Well, it's always painful, because there's going to be this sort of interim sort of movement as things change. So say, certainly in Birmingham, we've got some glaring omissions. You know, John Lewis closed in the centre of Birmingham. So I mean, that was a massive, again, four floors, Debenhams, you know, so we're all the kind of same, you know, so we are going to see almost like, you know, it's a bit wounded. I think the high street, shopping malls are a little bit wounded. And it is, it's painful. And it is upsetting, but I think things will do, but we'll come back over time. It is interesting when retailers do go out of business, and you often talk to people, and you say, and we say, well, Woolworths was a good example, wasn't it? But it went out of business because people weren't shopping there! They're sad, but also as consumers, we have a degree of responsibility. I mean, I know the demise of Woolworths is very complicated and part of its demise was around the sort of payments to suppliers and things so there was a sort of a complex element but also it wasn't particularly booming because as consumers we moved on. So we you know, it was quite a while ago, wasn't it? Now it's Debenhams turn you know, as consumers we make active choices you know, choices to go to people, to not to you know, go and use Amazon you know, or we can make an active choice to boycott them. We can make an active choice to use them, but I think it will be painful. Yeah, it's painful and of course for retail employees. That's that's where obviously the biggest pain point.

Independent Thinking:

Yeah, it's been a tremendously difficult time. But I think like you said there are new buds of things that will emerge, it will take time to, to develop but there are there is definitely hope and like you say, new things that are starting up, new ways for us to be. I'm just really interested just thinking about the independents because I guess that would have been speaking to a number of independent stores within Scotland, thinking about your local area. And actually this is so that we can add things to our list when we visit Birmingham! Are there any local independents to you or people that you feel actually or even large retailers that you've just been really impressed with locally, to you?

Dr Sarah Montano:

I mean, one of the brands, which was was new, and we've supported them from their opening, (which might say more about me than it says about them), is a wine shop called Loki. And they opened in one of the arcades in Birmingham. We do have some really nice arcades in Birmingham, which tend to have very small, independent retailers in. And because there is a little bit of a walk, walk to them, but they're really, you know, nice sort of 1800s, really, really beautiful. So I think Loki's great, so it sort of opens, it's a wine store, but what they had is they have this kind of system where you buy like a card and put some money on it, and like a little credit card, you put it in a slot, and you could try wines! You could actually try them! So you know how you're reading in the back of the label going..Well, I don't really know what that means! What do you mean to say that, you know, it's a fruit grown in the terroir of you know...and it's got an earthy flavour?! Doesn't mean anything to me, humble customer, who doesn't have that expertise. So, um, so you could try and that was great. And again, it's an experience. So we mean, my husband would often go there, and you'd try, like, you know, just like a couple, you know, try a few different ones, then, of course, then you buy them, and then we'd got to know them as well. So then we we'd go in, and so we knew who they were. So then it became like, we'd always go, yeah, it was one of our anniversaries or something, we then buy, you know, a nice bottle of wine from them. When it was my husband's 40th birthday, I spent, like the most money I've ever spent in my entire life. Does it walk home as well?! Does it sing and dance this bottle?! But you know, you start to build that relationship. And it's meaningful, so, you know, obviously, I wanted some expert advice as to kind of what to buy. And so they've expanded and they've got a couple of new shops, etc. And they do, because obviously, you couldn't go into store, they do local deliveries. And then they have non COVID times they have tasting sessions and things like that they do online tasting sessions, I think they've just adapted really well. And it's, I think it's what again, it's that personal, isn't it? That you've known when they started, you're like, willing people to succeed, because we become invested in, we have these relationships. So I think places like Loki are great, yeah. Oh, let's open one round the corner from me, that would be gratefully appreciated!

Independent Thinking:

I think that's a really lovely point to end on! Our pound in our pocket is a vote, I guess, in terms of who we want to support and who we who we stand by. And I think it's really important that, we like you say , we all have the power to shape our high streets in terms of who we shop with how. And yeah, I think what the street will look like at the end of all this, but also in the next 10 or 15 years. So yeah, you've certainly given me a lot of hope. I am always hopeful about it, I again, love retail as well. But I think there's a lot of really interesting trends that will emerge, new things will start and will be difficult. But actually, I think the future looks really bright for town centres actually, not as bleak as people are saying!

Dr Sarah Montano:

I think there's there's definitely hope there. Definitely.

Independent Thinking:

Oh,wonderful! And on that note, it's such a pleasure to speak to you today. Sarah, thank you so much for your time. It's just fantastic to hear this really interesting analysis of what's going on from the past but also can where we're going. So thank you so much.

Dr Sarah Montano:

It's been a pleasure. Thank you.

Independent Thinking:

If you've enjoyed today's episode, please consider rating the show, rating and review or telling a friend, it really helps us to be discovered by other like minded listeners. Thanks for listening. Bye for now.